Amanita Design forum

I LOVE the artwork of this game, I love the characters and I love the puzzles.
But to be stopped dead in my tracks by being forced to play a computer opponent
in a game where the first person to play gets a extreme advantage, (against a computer no less),
has completely DESTROYED any fun I can have with this game, and has completely
killed any replayability this game had for me.

The solutions posted on Youtube do NOT work, as the comp uses an entirely different strategy
than the ones posted in the videos

I despise "mini-games" within games that render progression in the game impossible.
Jade Empire by Bioware had a bit of this, and I love/hate the game because of it.

I was enjoying myself immensely with the logic puzzles, and just "figuring things out"
but to be stopped dead by a forced board game that is more difficult than any of the puzzles I've run across
is just frustrating, and I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people stuck here too.

Berate me all you want and make fun of me with "LOL thatz e-z dude"

But this particular section of the game has rendered the rest of the game Unplayable to me,
because I cannot continue past it, as it's a requirement to continue the story.

No more for me.......

I don't know what about you, it took me about 10 minutes to defeat the computer for the first time. My little sister took about 10 retries to do so. Come on, a whole lot of people had already finished the game, using your brain a little won't harm. The computer is not unbeatable. If you want a strategy hint: Try to build two rows of three before it blocks either of them, then continue the unblocked one into four then five and you win.

The solution on youtube works fine (i've tried it), ofc the opening move of the computer and the other ones must be the same of those in the video.
By the way you can beat it simply playing.
Just follow the hint posted by illBeRoy

i think the hardest mini-game is the pipe puzzle. i spent almost half an hour doing the topological processing to simplify the net of pipes.

Subscribing here to post a single message with such a title tell you enough about the guy...

The computer plays deterministically and won't try to block a line if you have a 2-wide gap. It took me a long time to win the first time as well because I was probably overthinking it, but after I figured it out I can beat it with the exactly same set of moves each time in about 30 seconds. Basically you want to end up with something like this:

--x---
--x---
xxx--x
------
------
--x---

The computer is too stupid to put anything in those 2-wide gaps, so then you make the final move that seals the deal and place one in either of those gaps and you win.

I thought this was hard too but I just persevered and eventually the computer just seems to miss a really obvious blocking move which enabled me to win.  This can take a few goes to happen, though I'm sure with the strategies posted here it could be done quicker (perhaps I accidentally created this strategy!)

I used the YOuTUbe strategy for this, but I agree with the orignal poster, This kind of game does not belong in a wonderful adventiure like this. Neither do arcade games, like space invaders IMO! They are the kind of game you need endless practise and fast controls to win, neither of which I've got.  >:( So I guess I'm permanently stuck?

It took me between three and six tries without any hints - what am I doing wrong? Just kidding... Simply keep playing the game and try some creative moves.  :)

I don't want to second the foot-stomping, bitchy attitude of the original post. I have enjoyed this kind of point-and-click adventure since the very first SCUMM games, and Machinarium is a fun game, with really well-done art design and sound. I am a decent chess player, and only so-so at the Othello-style capture-the-stone type of games.

I need to second the idea that the Gomoku game was a bad call.

There are players here who thought the challenge was trivial, or just at the right level, but that doesn't negate the fact that many people found it extremely frustrating, nearly to the point of quitting, and I was among that group - the YouTube video with the solution is nearing 10,000 views. I did try several different strategies, and fought to a stalemate many times.

There is a mathematical advantage to having the first move in any connecting-stones game. That is a proven fact. The computer does play deterministically, but its strategy is close to an optimal defensive strategy.

If you want to implement a mini-game like this in a future release, I do have some friendly suggestions:

If you use Gomoku, let the player start first.

Some small percentage of the time, have the computer make a random move. Perhaps one move in one hundred, or two hundred - that would be all that is necessary.

Consider using chess or a variation of checkers.

Alternately, use a poker variant, or one of the more difficult solitaire variations.

I've played a version of Gomoku a lot when I was a kid. So I found it not too hard to beat the robot. You play chess so you would find it easy if it was a game of chess. However, I don't so I would probably have a really hard time. Same with poker. So if in a future game something like this is used again it should at least be another one-rule game that everyone can get at once.  :)

One suggestion for the Gomoku game in Machinarium though: I'd change the settings so that the right for the first move alternates between the players.

Edit: I just went there again and beat the other player in the first game (without filling the whole board). What really works for me is creating double binds. Just keep at it.  :)

Yes - I second this. Allow the first move be alternated between the computer and the player - that would fix a lot.

I've played against the other bot again for a while and maybe found something: The other guy seems to prefer a strategy of diagonals, same as in the example and tends to assume you want the same. So getting it into a game of horizontals and verticals tends to have a better chance of winning. I'm not entirely certain, yet but maybe it's worth a shot. The screenshot below is actually not the fastest game I won that way but the one where I managed to snap the right moment  ;)  ;D :

Update Replacing the first screenshot with two less cluttered from winning two games in a row with the vertical/horizontal tactic:

I probably spent 2-3 hours over the course of two days on this puzzle. As I was very often oblivious to the computer's impending win, I found it particularly frustrating that the game board would disappear immediately. I felt as if I might have a better chance of gaining insight into where I was going wrong if the board would stick around until I clicked (or something) so I could better learn from my mistakes.

I'm not even sure how I won, the time that I did.

hehe, I enjoyed the board game. I admit, it was frustrating but it actually brought a certain element of challenge to the game!

Variety is always a plus in my book.

I prefer board games then the little arcade games and such...

I agree with Occams Razor. This is just plain annoying. I've tried about 50 times so far and I'm getting nowhere. All the other puzzles that I've encountered are fixed (that is, nothing changes, you just keep plugging away until you solve it); this one keeps changing. It's simply not the kind of puzzle that I'm good at and I admit that (so all of you who are good at these things can keep your gloating remarks to yourselves). The YouTube hint is useless, since the starting point keeps changing (as does your opponent's moves). And it doesn't let me build parallel rows. Even when there are two spaces between my pieces, it will block me.

Even though I've shelled out my money for the game, I'm ready to abandon it.

Hmmm.... apart from what I've already said, maybe this will be of some help: You don't have to start in the middle. Starting in a corner is a way to early break the other bots fav tactics and maybe makes things less cluttered. Also, take your time. Don't let the bot rush you just because he doesn't have to think.
Below are two more screenshots. Again I won by getting the other bot into a horizontal/vertical game (red line) although there would have also been the diagonal line as a double bind (white dots) in the first one. I understand that this game can seem confusing, be frustrating and is different from the other puzzles but it's not impossible to solve  :)

Even though I beat this after numerous attempts, I think they need to make a patch for this.

I agree.  The damn board would disappear and I couldn't see how he won.

To those of you who are saying how 'simple' this puzzle is, let me say this.  My day job is as a psychologist who does cognitive testing, and it is normal for there to be variations in how everybody's brains process different types of information.  Some people have good spatial skills, some have good non-verbal reasoning, some have strengths in verbal reasoning, etc...   I am considered a fairly smart person and have completed several college degrees, yet my brain doesn't do this type of reasoning very well.  I actually walked away from this game for over 2 weeks because of this puzzle and went back to FPS gaming.  So please don't make the mistake of denigrating the original poster, just because his/her brain isn't good at something that you are good at.   That person probably has some skills that you lack.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I was just trying to help. :)

Edit: If there's a way to extract and re-implement a specific savegame I'd be more than happy to share one from right after winning this.  :)
@ bgthigfist: From a purely scientific point of view, I think it would be interesting to know the male : female "frustration ratio". This is not my field but from experience I'd say that this puzzle favours the female way of thinking. Any thoughts on that (I'd be really curious)?  :)

Alright, I just wiped my files and played again to the point at the bar (no spoilers). So here's the link to a *.zip file with a savegame from right after beating the robot at the Gomoku game with the bolts already in your inventory: http://rapidshare.com/files/305980140/MachinariumGomokuSavegame.zip

I've included a ReadMe that also again contains how I beat the bot (for those who might want to try again themselves). For those generally not reading ReadMes, here's one thing that might be important: I play the German version of the game so you might want to make a backup of your own file. They should be compatible but on the tiny off chance they arent you can go back again.

Enjoy the rest of the game  :)

It was challenging for sure, but after about ten to fifteen tries you start to figure out how to win. I have never played a game like this before, but I do play chess, and I found that once you realize how the computer is playing all you need to do is plan a few moves ahead to where you can get a situation where you will have two rows of three intersect at some point down the line. As long as you keep a gap of two in there until you are ready the computer won't block you. Eventually you will beat it and figure it out. I like the challenge of it. I am glad it wasn't too easy.

I just finished the game, and have to say that it was the absolute best game I have played since MYST came out. Everything was perfect! The puzzles, the unique graphics, the storyline, the touching ending, the amazing creativity, and even the level of frustration was perfect! I had several points where I was stuck for a couple of days. But I am glad I didn't use any hints and eventually broke through. What an awesome experience this way, really unique. This is clearly one of the best games of all time, in my opinon.

As a few enlightened posters said here, not only is it a terrible idea to have a genre shift midway through the game by turning it into a frustrating board game (which I do not nor have I ever enjoyed). Once defeated, the board immediately disappears from the screen, stopping me from learning at all of what I did wrong.

There is challenge and then there is torture.

What one the poster said about different people having different kinds of reasoning skills certainly applies here. I'm not skilled in board games at all and it is definitely not one I plan on acquiring any time soon.

I've seen many, many complaints all over the net about this board game bit, so anyone dissing the ones like me who were really frustrated about this particular moment in Machinarium are really being inconsiderate. Truly, one possesses skills the other lacks.

As both an actor and programmer (a combination I'm finding out to be very rare), I consider myself fairly intelligent in both regards, and yet I do not have the slightest interesting in mastering nor playing board games casually. Instead of hating on them, I just avoid them as a matter of personal taste.

To have one inserted in an adventure game so intuitive as this one (as most of them really aren't...) is a really counter-intuitive move from the designer(s) part.

Real thanks to the person who made a savegame available, because it's on his/her account alone that I'm still willing to play this otherwise great game.

I liked this game and wouldn't mind seeing more in other games, next time they could be there as optional challenges?

(SPOILER:)
Or how about introducing an alternative way to get the bolts? Like what was done in the greenhouse where the player can use the magnifying glass on the butterfly to get the code for the door so the player doesn't have to solve the three most difficult puzzles of the "fill-the-board"-challenge. This suits different types of players and also heightens the replayability of the game somewhat.

 ;D well it seems i'm quite lucky then. i beat it when the first time i played it.
but the 2nd time i failed. i donno if it requires more buttons on other places...
i think the tricky part here is try to place all your pieces as many as possible together in a big block so than u can combine 5 pieces in every direction that the computer is not be able to block u quickly enough.
like this: eg o is u and x is computer
.......
.ooox.
xooox.
xxooxx
...x..

Maybe they should just make these puzzles so that they appear more a part of the game.

One of the main problems seems to be that people see it as an unnecessary extra which should be avoidable, so if Amanita want to keep these parts and silence complaints then it would be best to integrate them in more subtly rather than having a blatant distinction between the general point and click theme and the other game parts.

It wouldn't solve any problems for those who have trouble with the unusual parts, but there are a lot of other games like this and making this change might help make Amanita stand out even more.

Well, if the puzzles were left out, the game would feel way too short and might not be worth the price to some players.

A lot of games are included with puzzles like these (The Legend of Zelda series, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, Tomb Raider), it's a way to extend gameplay. While some of these games do a good job at fitting in these kinds of puzzles, I do think most were integrated fairly well in Machinarium also. Either way, I wouldn't go so far as to call them a "blatant distinction".

I only said 'Blatant distinction' because most (maybe all) of them involve bringing up a mini-screen for the game which separates it from the main screen. If there is a way of playing the games on the main screen, especially if it is still possible to interact with the rest of the screen in the normal way, then that might help avoid the minigame status which makes them look like they could/should be avoidable.

And with the Gomoku game it might help if there are more games like that - games where you play agaoinst an AI. I kept going back to that one after I'd passed, it would be nice if there were more like this ;)