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November 18, 2019, 10:44:29 am

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Author Topic: 5 star game, until the required Gomoku board game, now 1 star  (Read 35047 times)
Occams Razor
little rusty robot

Posts: 1


« on: October 25, 2009, 07:27:11 am »

I LOVE the artwork of this game, I love the characters and I love the puzzles.
But to be stopped dead in my tracks by being forced to play a computer opponent
in a game where the first person to play gets a extreme advantage, (against a computer no less),
has completely DESTROYED any fun I can have with this game, and has completely
killed any replayability this game had for me.

The solutions posted on Youtube do NOT work, as the comp uses an entirely different strategy
than the ones posted in the videos

I despise "mini-games" within games that render progression in the game impossible.
Jade Empire by Bioware had a bit of this, and I love/hate the game because of it.

I was enjoying myself immensely with the logic puzzles, and just "figuring things out"
but to be stopped dead by a forced board game that is more difficult than any of the puzzles I've run across
is just frustrating, and I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people stuck here too.

Berate me all you want and make fun of me with "LOL thatz e-z dude"

But this particular section of the game has rendered the rest of the game Unplayable to me,
because I cannot continue past it, as it's a requirement to continue the story.

No more for me.......
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illBeRoy
little robot
*
Posts: 7


« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 08:15:01 am »

I don't know what about you, it took me about 10 minutes to defeat the computer for the first time. My little sister took about 10 retries to do so. Come on, a whole lot of people had already finished the game, using your brain a little won't harm. The computer is not unbeatable. If you want a strategy hint: Try to build two rows of three before it blocks either of them, then continue the unblocked one into four then five and you win.
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Bio
noble citizen robot
***
Posts: 28


« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 09:16:44 am »

The solution on youtube works fine (i've tried it), ofc the opening move of the computer and the other ones must be the same of those in the video.
By the way you can beat it simply playing.
Just follow the hint posted by illBeRoy
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Oscar
little robot
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Posts: 2


« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 01:26:39 pm »

i think the hardest mini-game is the pipe puzzle. i spent almost half an hour doing the topological processing to simplify the net of pipes.
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Rhialto
captain robot
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 74


the Marvellous


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 02:29:10 pm »

Subscribing here to post a single message with such a title tell you enough about the guy...
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parlance
little robot
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Posts: 5


« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 07:23:00 pm »

The computer plays deterministically and won't try to block a line if you have a 2-wide gap. It took me a long time to win the first time as well because I was probably overthinking it, but after I figured it out I can beat it with the exactly same set of moves each time in about 30 seconds. Basically you want to end up with something like this:

--x---
--x---
xxx--x
------
------
--x---

The computer is too stupid to put anything in those 2-wide gaps, so then you make the final move that seals the deal and place one in either of those gaps and you win.
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jmortimeruk
little robot
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Posts: 5


« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 02:00:18 pm »

I thought this was hard too but I just persevered and eventually the computer just seems to miss a really obvious blocking move which enabled me to win.  This can take a few goes to happen, though I'm sure with the strategies posted here it could be done quicker (perhaps I accidentally created this strategy!)
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seekandfind
little robot
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Posts: 6


« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2009, 01:12:13 am »

I used the YOuTUbe strategy for this, but I agree with the orignal poster, This kind of game does not belong in a wonderful adventiure like this. Neither do arcade games, like space invaders IMO! They are the kind of game you need endless practise and fast controls to win, neither of which I've got.  Angry So I guess I'm permanently stuck?
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Limaria
citizen robot
**
Posts: 8


« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 07:57:31 pm »

It took me between three and six tries without any hints - what am I doing wrong? Just kidding... Simply keep playing the game and try some creative moves.  Smiley
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salvagebar
little robot
*
Posts: 3


« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2009, 01:11:19 am »

I don't want to second the foot-stomping, bitchy attitude of the original post. I have enjoyed this kind of point-and-click adventure since the very first SCUMM games, and Machinarium is a fun game, with really well-done art design and sound. I am a decent chess player, and only so-so at the Othello-style capture-the-stone type of games.

I need to second the idea that the Gomoku game was a bad call.

There are players here who thought the challenge was trivial, or just at the right level, but that doesn't negate the fact that many people found it extremely frustrating, nearly to the point of quitting, and I was among that group - the YouTube video with the solution is nearing 10,000 views. I did try several different strategies, and fought to a stalemate many times.

There is a mathematical advantage to having the first move in any connecting-stones game. That is a proven fact. The computer does play deterministically, but its strategy is close to an optimal defensive strategy.

If you want to implement a mini-game like this in a future release, I do have some friendly suggestions:

If you use Gomoku, let the player start first.

Some small percentage of the time, have the computer make a random move. Perhaps one move in one hundred, or two hundred - that would be all that is necessary.

Consider using chess or a variation of checkers.

Alternately, use a poker variant, or one of the more difficult solitaire variations.
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Limaria
citizen robot
**
Posts: 8


« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2009, 02:13:47 am »


Consider using chess or a variation of checkers.

Alternately, use a poker variant, or one of the more difficult solitaire variations.

I've played a version of Gomoku a lot when I was a kid. So I found it not too hard to beat the robot. You play chess so you would find it easy if it was a game of chess. However, I don't so I would probably have a really hard time. Same with poker. So if in a future game something like this is used again it should at least be another one-rule game that everyone can get at once.  Smiley

One suggestion for the Gomoku game in Machinarium though: I'd change the settings so that the right for the first move alternates between the players.

Edit: I just went there again and beat the other player in the first game (without filling the whole board). What really works for me is creating double binds. Just keep at it.  Smiley
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 02:22:52 am by Limaria » Logged
salvagebar
little robot
*
Posts: 3


« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 06:15:59 pm »


One suggestion for the Gomoku game in Machinarium though: I'd change the settings so that the right for the first move alternates between the players.

Edit: I just went there again and beat the other player in the first game (without filling the whole board). What really works for me is creating double binds. Just keep at it.  Smiley

Yes - I second this. Allow the first move be alternated between the computer and the player - that would fix a lot.
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Limaria
citizen robot
**
Posts: 8


« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2009, 12:07:28 am »

I've played against the other bot again for a while and maybe found something: The other guy seems to prefer a strategy of diagonals, same as in the example and tends to assume you want the same. So getting it into a game of horizontals and verticals tends to have a better chance of winning. I'm not entirely certain, yet but maybe it's worth a shot. The screenshot below is actually not the fastest game I won that way but the one where I managed to snap the right moment  Wink  Grin :

Update Replacing the first screenshot with two less cluttered from winning two games in a row with the vertical/horizontal tactic:


* machwin2small.gif (51.15 KB, 292x283 - viewed 1377 times.)

* machwin3small.gif (48.07 KB, 283x271 - viewed 1976 times.)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 01:04:04 pm by Limaria » Logged
everdred
little robot
*
Posts: 2


« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2009, 08:04:11 am »

I probably spent 2-3 hours over the course of two days on this puzzle. As I was very often oblivious to the computer's impending win, I found it particularly frustrating that the game board would disappear immediately. I felt as if I might have a better chance of gaining insight into where I was going wrong if the board would stick around until I clicked (or something) so I could better learn from my mistakes.

I'm not even sure how I won, the time that I did.
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nico
little robot
*
Posts: 7


« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2009, 03:57:08 pm »

hehe, I enjoyed the board game. I admit, it was frustrating but it actually brought a certain element of challenge to the game!

Variety is always a plus in my book.

I prefer board games then the little arcade games and such...
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